Tomatoes and Peppers. Now or in January?

[Barb]

We were waiting to plant tomatoes and peppers in school garden until January, but now the nurseries are full of bedding plants and one says they won't have any in January.... Bedding plants? Seeds? Now? Later? (Obviously we're new to this!)

[Chris Byers]

I have plants in now I hoping to hold over till next year, frost cloth is something I will need to do to keep them healthy if we have some freeze hours.

So I would suggest starting seed now so your plants are ready to put out later or buy seedlings and do what I am planning.

My tomotoes are just under 4 feet tall at this time and growing and setting fruit like mad.

[Barb]

They look beautiful, Chris. When did you put these in and did you start them from seed or buy plants?

[Chris Byers]

I did not have time this year to plant seeds so I purchased about 6 inch tall plants mid-September. One thing I am doing is experimenting with different soil treatments to correct my soil ph, I am using vinegar water on this test garden with good luck. The soil is just dirt from the yard and some steer manure, with a treatment of vinegar about once a week.

[Tracy]

Wow, I love your trellis. Did you make this? What did you make it out of? I planted a couple of tomatoes (Early girl and Sweet 100) around Halloween and they are around 2 feet tall. They are just starting to flower. They'd be better if they had more than 3 hours of sun a day! I also have peppers flowering like mad and a patio tomato I'm keeping in a pot outside with about 9 lovely tomatoes refusing to ripen.
Hoping to keep everything going through the winter.
Planning on starting seeds in big, flat plastic bins this week outside. I can add lids when needed and will plant in the ground around Jan 15.

[Chris Byers]

The trellis started out as a scrap 2X4 which I used my band saw to cut to the lenths and width I wanted to build the trellis. Seems to be working pretty well so far the tomatoes are still young and I am expecting another 2 feet or so of growth.
I am so used to growing in a marginal climate some years here it seems like heaven. I figure if I can grow a banana and papaya I can grow tomatoes all year long. I should be getting ripe fruit in about 2 weeks I think. The short days are a problem but the temps are perfect to me for growing stuff. I will push them some if I have to to get some in time for Thanksgiving.

Mine also are indeterminates and I am hoping to have fruit off of them for a long time if I take care of them.

[Anita Mahaffey]

Tracy, try hanging some red Christmas ornaments on your tomato plant.

[Rachel]

My tomatoes that are fruiting now are ones that over summered. Our average first frost date here is December 7th, so if you did buy them, you could probably get a little bit of fruit off them, but not much. You could also try and keep them under frost cloth and hope they last until spring, but you aren't too likely to get a bunch of fruit off them under frot cloth unless they are specific varieties that produce well in the cold, and the ones you get from the nursery are not these varieties. I generally seed mine indoors (under some fluorescent lighting rigged to be grow lights) around Christmas for spring planting. You don't want to put the actual plants outside until the end of February.

[Tracy]

I've been watching the Garden Web. It seems like anything from Jan 15-Feb 15 is a go around here. This is my first year of being pretty agressive. I'm always too late for AZ and my stuff gets too hot before producing well. The two I just planted are indeterminates so they should continue to produce, I'll protect from the cold. I'm going to "winter sow" outdoors the seeds that I'm planting, protecting from any cold nights and allowing to grow slowly in the sun during the days. I can bring indoors for any really cold nights as well. I simply don't have space for too many seedlings in the house and plan on planting a bunch of heirloom varieties this year. Plus, lots of pepper types too.
I may rig up some Christmas lights on the outdoor plants so that they get a little more light and warmth since the shade is such a problem right now. It's a good summer spot but not so good in the winter.

[Chris Byers]

Here is the information about freezing dates, what time of day to look for freeze and a whole lot of information about temperature in the Phoenix area. One of the best things to do is check the weather report in the afternoon while it is still warm out, one to two hours before sundown. If it looks like a freezing night, put a freeze cloth over your tender plants before the sun goes down, this way you trap heat under the cloth. If you think it is going to be really cold for a couple of hours put a light bulb under there also. Wait to take it off until the sun has been up an hour or two so you get past the coldest part of the day.

Most important is to not let the freeze cloth touch the plant, were it touches you will get some frost damage. Unless we get a really cold winter, most of the time this is something one has to do only a few times a year. I am pretty sure I will be able to get ripening tomatoes from what I have read and citrus farmers I have talked to about this process. Going to find out soon, that is for sure.
The following is some good information: http://www.public.asu.edu/~aunjs/ClimateofPhoenix/wxpart2b.htm

FREEZE AND GROWING SEASON DATA
MEAN DATES OF LAST 32 DEGREES IN SPRING AND FIRST 32 DEGREES IN FALL IN THE GREATER PHOENIX AREA
STATION LAST LENGTH OF GROWING SEASON [DAYS] FIRST

Alhambra 2 NE March 10 258 November 23

Buckeye March 6 260 November 21

Camelback March 8 260 November 23

Deer Valley March 7 263 November 25

Falcon Field-Mesa April 3 234 November 23

Laveen February 21 279 November 27

Litchfield Park February 26 270 November 23

Marienette February 25 271 November 23

Mesa Experiment Station March 3 266 November 24

Phoenix Sky Harbor February 7 309 December 12

Tempe March 2 265 November 22

Tempe Citrus Station March 14 253 November 22



PROBABILITY OF LOW TEMPERATURES
SPRING
STATION TEMP 90% 75% 50% 25% 10%

Litchfield Park 40 MAR 22 MAR 30 APR 8 APR 17 APR 25

36 MAR 3 MAR 13 MAR 25 APR 6 APR 16

32 FEB 1 FEB 13 FEB 26 MAR 11 MAR 23

28 DEC 29 JAN 14 FEB 3 FEB 23 MAR 12

24 JAN 25 FEB 12

20


FALL
10% 25% 50% 75% 90%

40 OCT 21 OCT 27 NOV 3 NOV 10 NOV 16

36 OCT 29 NOV 6 NOV 15 NOV 24 DEC 2

32 NOV 4 NOV 13 NOV 23 DEC 3 DEC 12

28 NOV 16 NOV 28 DEC 11 DEC 24 JAN 5

24 DEC 20 JAN 4

20




ARIZONA INDIAN PROVERB:"When small water snakes leave the sand in low damp lands, frosts may be expected in three days".


In these probability of low temperature tables, the 50% level gives the "mean" or "average" as well as the "median" of occurrence of each threshold. Another way of expressing the same result is to state that, on the average, the first temperature as low as 40 degrees at Litchfield Park will occur by November 3 in one half of the years (or, for example, in 5 years out of 10).

By the same line of reasoning, there is a 90% probability that the first temperature as low as 40 degrees will occur by November 16. Again, it can be stated that 40 degrees will occur by November 16 in 9 years out of 10, in the long run.

PROBABILITY OF LOW TEMPERATURES
SPRING
STATION TEMP 90% 75% 50% 25% 10%

Mesa Experiment Station 40 MAR 27 APR 4 APR 13 APR 22 APR 30

36 FEB 23 MAR 7 MAR 19 MAR 31 APR 12

32 JAN 27 FEB 13 MAR 3 MAR 21 APR 7

28 JAN 20 FEB 8 FEB 25 MAR 13

24 JAN 24 FEB 10

20 JAN 19



FALL
10% 25% 50% 75% 90%

40 OCT 17 OCT 25 NOV 2 NOV 10 NOV 18

36 OCT 25 NOV 2 NOV 11 NOV 20 NOV 28

32 NOV 2 NOV 13 NOV 24 DEC 5 DEC 16

28 NOV 8 NOV 25 DEC 14 JAN 1

24 DEC 13 DEC 26

20 JAN 10



GROWING SEASON MEAN LENGTH (DAYS)

Temp Litchfield Park Mesa Experiment Station

40 209 203

36 235 237

32 270 266

28 311 309

24 365 365

20 365 365




Source: ARIZONA CLIMATE, SUPPLEMENT NO. II, PROBABILITY OF LOW TEMPERATURES OCCURRING IN ARIZONA, April 1967, University of Arizona Press.

EXTREMES OF FREEZE AND GROWING SEASON DATA
1896-1990
LATEST DATE OF FREEZE IN SPRING (32 Degrees or Lower)

City Office March 31 1897

Airport Office April 4 1945


EARLIEST DATE OF FREEZE IN AUTUMN (32 Degrees or Lower)

City Office November 5 1922

Airport Office November 3 1946

Airport Office November 4 1956


LONGEST FREEZE FREE PERIOD (Above 32 Degrees)

City Office 368 Days February 19 1952 through February 21 1953

Airport Office 693 Days January 13 1977 through December 6 1978

Airport Office 1897 Days November 23 1979 through January 31 1985


SHORTEST FREEZE FREE PERIOD (Above 32 Degrees)

City Office 222 Days March 31 1897 through November 8 1897

Airport Office 231 Days April 4 1945 through November 21 1945

Airport Office 236 Days March 13 1956 through November 4 1956



FREEZE AND GROWING SEASON DATA -- "THE COLDER SECTIONS OF THE VALLEY"
The climate of any urban area is continuously changing as housing developments are created from open lots and fields, as vegetation such as citrus groves are added or taken away, as streets are paved, and even, in the extreme, as the natural topography is altered.

Each home actually creates its own microclimate, absorbing heat during the day and radiating it at night. The temperature range can vary 5 to 10 degrees in relatively short distances. Groups of homes, prominent geographical features such as the Papago Buttes, Camelback and Mummy Mountain, South Mountains and Squaw Peak, large buildings such as the Central Avenue groups, broad streets and parking lots, and even a concentration of heat-producing automobile engines actually create what are known as "heat islands" that are separate, but nevertheless important, factors in the climate of the Phoenix area.

In general, however, the farther a particular location is away from these "heat islands", the more temperatures are likely to be colder than at other locations in the valley. Tolleson, on the west side of Phoenix, surrounded by agricultural land, is frequently 3 to 5 degrees colder than most locations in the city. However, there are some locations inside the city that are as much as 5 to 10 degrees colder than temperatures reported at Sky Harbor Airport. These locations are unique only because of their individual relationships to the drainage of cold air and their distance from "heat islands".

At night, cold air generally flows like water toward lowest sections and often "pools" when it can go no farther or is "dammed" by a natural or unnatural obstruction. On still nights, the ground loses heat more rapidly than the air itself, and a temperature inversion forms where the air close to the ground is much colder than the air a short distance above the ground. At times there may be as much as 5 to 6 degrees difference between the temperature at ground level and the 5-foot level, where standard temperatures are measured. Hence, frost may appear on the grass and low vegetation when temperatures above freezing are reported.

In summary, the temperature structure of the area is quite complex, varying from point to point in the valley and is constantly changing with the time of the day and with the growth of the community. Most people can, with a little study, determine the relationship of their local minimum to the forecast low temperature in the colder sections of the valley.

NOTE: The lowest temperature of the day usually occurs within one hour before or after sunrise; while the highest temperature usually occurs about two to three hours before sunset.


This represents almost a century of farming information from the valley here, good stuff to use.

[Tracy]

I have a good microclimate, being in Mesa, surrounded by citrus and giant cyprus and pines. I also have 6 foot concrete walls around my lot and a large pool which I'm sure changes things. I've never actually seen frost in my backyard despite the weather.
I'm a TWC addict when weather changes are imminent. I will watch the weather by the hour on my Iphone and this winter plan to start wrapping my tender little plants with bubble wrap, cardboard boxes, sheets, christmas lights, whatever, whenever needed.
The nice thing is that I haven't gotten my big garden going yet so everything is collected right outside my backdoor with easy access to electricity, water and cover. Plenty of radiated heat and shelter too.
Has anyone used Christmast lights to force a little added heat and even some extra light onto winter tomatoes? My little guys are in way too much shade. What type of lights are best, placed on the cage or right on the plant?
Chris, did you buy or make those tomatoe supports? I love them!

[Chris Byers]

Make my own supports, have been a hobby woodworker most of my life. Just do not like the metal ones very much, they work fine and last a long time, just think they are too much money any more.

The Christmas lights should work fine for some heat to help out on any frost warnings. I have read of it being used successfully in colder areas than here. As for them giving enough light to be useful, probably not. Do you have the ability to reflect some light to them? A white panel of paper, cardboard, foam core, even a white sheet can add a reasonable amount of light through reflection. It is light low in either end of the spectrum but I think it would help some.
I would not put lights on the plants but under them or on the cage low down. The heat will rise and having a sheet or whatever tented over the plants for the few hours needed should help out enough to save them. At least I am hoping it is, tomatoes are not as sensitive as some of the citrus and they save them, so we will see what works and what does not next spring!

I call this my experiment garden, as I am new to this area and I am trying out different gardening ideas on an accelerated program to see some of the cheaper, easier ways to get high yields here. I draw on over a half a century of experience and have learned when to pay attention to conventional wisdom and when to ignore it. I also love to pull in thoughts and ideas from a wide range of experiences. I have some failures or really more missteps but they get fewer and fewer as time goes on.

Growing plants is really a mental game more than anything else. It is learning about what each plant likes and then looking at what you have to give them that matches this most closely. An example would be the neighbor two doors down growing a papaya on the north side of his house in the shade of his house. It is planted where it should not produce fruit according to what I have read and some people I have talked to, as I admire the very nice looking fruit growing on it I realize they are somewhat wrong. Therefore, when someone tells me it is not going to work I tend to figure out why it is not going to work and see how that applies to my growing.

It sounds like you have an area where you can overwinter those plants and if it does not work then next year we can do something different.

[Tracy]

I come from many parts of the country as well. This part of the country fascinates me. I've lived in areas where I was growing things like peas and lettuce in July/August so to even consider the idea of planting tomatoes in January is more of a curiosity than anything.
I'm also trying the winter sowing idea due to fascination, have never tried this before but seems to work well in most parts of the country. I'm concerned it may be too warm rather than too cold for it here.
My biggest challenge here has been dealing with the heat. My microclimate in my yard sets me up for an oven in the summer. That and lack of sun in the winter due to the giant trees. The exciting thing is the ability to grow tropicals and citrus. I am, however, counting the moments until I can own a large amount of good, fertile farmland somewhere with four seasons again. Something more than 40 acres would be nice. I'm thinking 80-160 would be about right. OK/NE TX are on my list of places to be next.
I'm having a lot of fun with my tomatoe, basil and pepper winter experiments. The citrus, they just grow/grow/grow, I do nothing to them. They were here when I moved in with my husband. We have flood irrigation and they just produce bumper crops of unknown type of lemons that look like giant navel oranges (orange rinds and all) and I don't even feed, prune or spray them. This year though, I will need to prune the poor things as they are dragging the ground and growing into the pine trees, can't even get to parts of them anymore.
My next project is a semi-giant garden in the previously unused/abused portion of the yard once I can get the guys to move rocks/dig dirt and figure out where to put all the rocks. I plan to put a small fruit orchard (apples, peaches, cots, plums, pomegranete and maybe a guava) along the borders and a bunch of 20X3 foot plots of garden.
Just ordered four more barrels from the city for compost last week and filled em up with the neighbors tree trimmings to get them started.
What I have learned so far is that the calender from the county is very, very far from what the gardener's in this area seem to follow (according to the one's on the gardenweb forum) and that my garden seems to hold more true to this forum than the county calender.
You sound like you have a ton of experience to draw wisdom from.
I'll be buying some christmas lights on my next run to the box store! Do you think the cheapest kind would be the best heat output?
What happens with a large swimming pool? Hotter or warmer in the winter time near the pool? Wondering because I just moved my potted tomato close to the pool to get more sunlight. Wondering if I should move it away at nighttime or if it's better there at night.